The following is a conversation that I had on a discussion forum with a guy who calls himself Tyciol about entrapment and the nature of thought crimes. I think that you will find the following discussion enlightening. I am the username HothSnake.

 

HothSnake 
Sovereign Power
Posts: 1790
(6/2/05 3:12 pm)

 

Quote:

When you give people the freedom to do what they want, and the freedom to do what they want with their property, the greediest and strongest among them will seek to gain control over the freedom and property of others.

Not true.. perhaps in a pure Democracy ruled by the mob, which is not the same thing as Capitalism, yes, but not in a pure laissez faire capitalist system. Honesty and integrity rule the day in a pure laissez faire system, where the only government role is to protect and defend the individual rights of its citizens. A system that is predicated on "free and honest trade " weeds out and prevents such corrupt actions from occurring. It is a fact that monopolies cannot exist in a pure laissez system, and are only evidenced in countries with an over abundance of government intervention and control. Every monopoly that currently exists or has existed in the US was created by government regulation, subsidies, and intervention, from the railroad trusts to Microsoft. If we are all competing honestly for the same prize, then only the best can win. If you screw up, or act in a dishonest manner, then there is nothing to protect you from the ire of the market. You will lose your market share to your competitor, and no amount of money or power will save you. Nature does not discriminate. You can only buy power in a corrupt system. You need to drop words like greedy... Everyone is greedy, and what is wrong with being strong? Nature will only choose those that deserve it.

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everyone would have to be perfect and equal


Not perfect, just equal under the law.

tyciol 
Registered User
Posts: 1180
(6/2/05 6:50 am)


According to legislation (if we can get the gays to marry anyway) then people are equal under the law.

Where the government chooses to spend it's money, and which organizations to aid, isn't law, it's spending.

You keep compariing democracy and capitalism, and denying my statements, but I never implied that one necessitated the other or vice versa, since one is economic and the oter political. You can have a capitalistic dictatorship and a democratic communism after all.

- Tyciol! -

HothSnake 
Sovereign Power
Posts: 1790
(6/2/05 3:12 pm)

 

Quote:

According to legislation (if we can get the gays to marry anyway) then people are equal under the law.



Not at all.. We have a caste system where government officials and law enforcement officers have a different set of laws. You and I would be sent to prison for a very long time, if we committed the crimes that government commits on a daily basis. The police routinely sell drugs, pose as pedophiles, break into peoples houses illegally, sell illegal firearms, pose as prostitutes, run meth labs, falsify evidence, obstruct justice, coerce testimony, lie under oath, and knowingly send innocent civilians to prison with virtually no ramifications. Those are just our police.. I have yet to mention the prosecutors, attorney generals, congressman, senators, and judges. The biggest group of criminals of them all have the initials CIA. This shadow agency that acts as a shadow government keeps tabs on the people, while making sure that only their own reach the auspices of power. They are also behind the drug trade. Every President as far as I can remember has been a CIA operative. This agency got its start in the legendary Skull and Bones at Yale University. The rest of us are serfs for them.. I wouldn't call that equal, would you?


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Where the government chooses to spend it's money, and which organizations to aid, isn't law, it's spending.


I'm not quite sure where you are going with this comment.

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You keep compariing democracy and capitalism, and denying my statements, but I never implied that one necessitated the other or vice versa, since one is economic and the oter political. You can have a capitalistic dictatorship and a democratic communism after all.



It is you who brought up democracy with capitalism. Capitalism is a system of government and economy all unto itself.. By definition it demands very limited government (laissez faire, i.e., hands off). Democracy is something opposite that demands majority rule and powerful government run by a mob and the laws of mobs, despots, and anarchists.... something that is somewhat antithetical to capitalism. I think that you are confusing the two actually. Capitalism is not majority rule, but rule determined by the natural forces of the free market, i.e., rule by nature(natural law or common law). Thus it is supremely just and fair. By far the fairest system ever used by man. The U.S., as it was founded, was a constitutional republic and not a democracy. Today it exists as a democratic, communist, fascist, socialist republic, which is pretty much what the Soviet Union was. A capitalist dictatorship is an oxymoron by definition.

 

tyciol 
Registered User
Posts: 1194
(6/4/05 8:42 pm)

Hoth, please read, I said according to legislation.

Posing as prostitutes and underaged children (I assume... who would pose as a pedophile?) is fine, I'm all for entrapment, it's awesome.

Hoth, I said according to legislation, and it's especially true since anyone can choose those occupations. Besides which, all that stuff you listed they WILL be prosecuted for (posing as a prostitute or underaged child or a molester is entrapment, it's not to get any kicks, it's to catch criminals, entrapment kicks ass).

HothSnake 
Sovereign Power
Posts: 1790
(6/2/05 3:12 pm)

Quote:
Hoth, I said according to legislation,



What does that mean exactly?? Are you saying under the law? According to the constitution, yes, but they don't use the constitution anymore, except to wipe their ass with.

Entrapment isn't awesome.. Its unconstitutional, and there is a very good reason that it is illegal. It is moronic for a so called law enforcement officer to say that he is upholding the law by breaking it. The police take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, and obviously breaking the law is a violation of that oath. The police are supposed to stop crime... not create it. If I set up a traffic signal so that the yellow light barely flashes for a second, so that I can generate revenue for my department by ticketing people for running a red light, then that is entrapment. Do you think that that is awesome? A police officer should not compel you to break the law, for such action would be antithetical to his job. He can only catch you in the act. You can't have one set of laws for the police and another for the citizenry. You can't have criminals(police officers committing crimes for entrapment) trying to catch innocent civilians who haven't committed a crime yet. In such a scenario, who is the criminal? That's what entrapment really is. It is a free license for the police to violate basic rights and the law, while getting away with it. That's not awesome dude. It gives the police arbitrary power over you and your property.. That's not cool at all dude. That's not equality by legislation(law) by any stretch of the imagination. Setting up speed traps, selling drugs, changing the time sequence of traffic lights, selling illegal firearms, and prostitution should all be as illegal for the police as they are for you. I don't care what their motives are. It's the simple principle of living up to your oath of office and protecting the rights of all of the people, and not hoarding special rights for you and your buddies because you have the power. In fact, the police should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us. The justice system should go much harder on criminal acts by the police, then they should on Joe Schmoe off the street because they have the burden of responsiblity. By the way... stopping someone for a minor traffic offense and then forcing them to pay you money is called extortion, and it isn't constitutional either. The government cannot compel you to pay them money at the point of a gun, for that would be tantamount to a king exacting tribute.

P.S... Police entrapment is like funeral home directors generating business by murdering people.


Veilhawk (this guy joined in)
Registered User
Posts: 701
(6/5/05 6:03 pm)

 

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By the way... stopping someone for a minor traffic offense and then forcing them to pay you money is called extortion, and it isn't legal either. The government can not compel you to pay them money at the point of a gun.


It is very legal. You've even said it yourself, I forgot what post but you said we live in a caste system.

And it is just like that.


**LEGAL** is not **Lawful**

From my knowledge, when people are born - giving up their birth certificate and all that: That's entrapment into a system I never agreed with. I never said anyone could have my birth certificate. It is only mine if I put a claim on it. And until then, I remain a slave to the system because I had been taught nothing about the laws of nature. So in essence, I accept their 'laws' as long as I obey they and am kept away from truth of a sustaining and caring civilization. You should know this is why the jews had laws for everything that were in conjunction with nature. God's law first, then man's. And if man's law goes against god's law - then you fight against it.


It's the same thing with circumcision. I never said anyone could circumsize me to sell the skin to a lotion company, but I got circumsized because I was too young to have a word in it except my screams, every baby screams. If you've ever seen it done - better yet heard it, you must know it's an evil thing to do. I'm restoring it but what's done was done and they should pay for it. There are a lot of people today suing their parents because of it.

Same thing in schools: who controls the books? Some corporated companies 'SPELLED LIKE THIS' so it promotes and allows the government's control over it. It allows forced control over them and what it says. Then you must wonder how it came to be like that? How come government got so much control like this? Didn't FDR force people at gunpoint to give up gold and land for paper?

So it was done by force, and then history was covered up in the books because giving up property like that forced them to accept the 'laws' that were forced on them. Bit by bit, piece by piece, and over time it gets worse and makes future generations serve the government instead of it serving them. It promotes the socially acceptable image that everything is alright in the hands of uncle sam, or the doctors and dentists - murderers.

That's what makes things LEGAL: Being forced - entrapped into it. They are playing above the law, and will continue to until they're dead by someone else or by killing themselves.


Paper is not skin, therefore I do not live at

1234 abcd Dr.
blah, UT
64781

I live *right here*. I live wherever I am. I may reside at that address, but I do not live there because I move around. You could say 'well how do you get your mail?'

Isn't that what the post office is for? That's how it originally was. I should not have to have a driver's license. Why the @#%$ should I tell the government what brand of car, year and model I have, and then have to pay insurance on it?

I shouldn't have to. It's entrapment. It's forcing us to do things we don't want, nor need to do. And the whole system promotes and thrives on stupidity and ignorance. ALl the way from stupifying us through the food we eat, the air we breathe, to the 'laws' we follow.

-------
Land of the Slave, and home of the Knave.

It is natural for man to deal in the illusions of hope; but as for me, I want to know the worst; the truth, and prepare for it
-Samuel Adams

 

HothSnake 
Sovereign Power
Posts: 1790
(6/2/05 3:12 pm)

 

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It is very legal. You've even said it yourself, I forgot what post but you said we live in a caste system.


Yeah, yeah, I know, I just keep it simple for the folks that have no clue, but you know what I mean.

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Hoth, entrapment like that is wrong because it's tricking people. Setting up fake prostitutes and child pornographers and kids to bust them? That's just useful, because these people WILL commit the crimes, they're making a concious choice.


Isn't there enough real crime to keep the police busy without their creating it? Useful? Are they suddenly running a psychic friends network now? Perhaps they should team up with Deon Warwick or Miss Cleo? Targeting civilians for crimes that they haven't committed yet is a bit odd, don't you think? Labeling certain individuals as potential criminals, and then setting them up, is not the place of law enforcement (notice that they aren't called "law entrapment officers".) And it certainly isn't the place of law enforcement to facilitate the breaking of the laws that they are supposed to be protecting. I'd rather have pedophiles out on the street than have police officers violating the laws of the land with impunity, and who are above the law. A pedophile is never above the law, unless he is a police officer. Only those that make the laws and enforce the laws can make themselves above the law, and that is why they should be held accountable above all civilian criminals, hence the phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors".

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Hoth, entrapment like that is wrong because it's tricking people.


All entrapment is tricking people... What do you suppose posting three different speed limits within a half mile is?? I see no difference between this and posing as a 17 year old in a chat room in order to entrap an older male into committing thought crimes(something right out of Orwell's 1984). The police should only be allowed to arrest you for crimes that you have committed, and not for things that they deem thought crimes. I mean, nobody detests pedophiles more than I do.. You've seen me lam-bast you and Chiu for it on here.. Incidentally, if I were a police officer, I could arrest you both for "intent to commit statutory rape", i.e., a thought crime. Any time the police entrap someone, they are in effect setting up the offense of a thought crime, and not an actual crime. If I pose as a 15 year old on this forum, and I tell you and Chiu that I'd love to meet you both tonight, and when you showed up at the meeting place, arrested you before you actually did anything by calling it "intent to commit statutory rape", then obviously you had not actually committed a real crime. The government can't punish you for your thoughts because the government isn't omniscient and they can not know what you were thinking, or what your intentions were, and that is why all common law is based on punishing the act alone. The idea of the government being allowed to punish you for thinking is just @#%$ scary.

Tyciol
Registered User
Posts: 122
(6/5/05 11:08 pm)

Hoth, you know what I mean. Rapidly changing speed limits or traffic light signals plays upon taking advantage of someone's not reacting quickly enough or not being observant enough. They still aren't intending to break the law.

Someone who is trafficing child pornography or paying for prostitution obviously IS, and will do it in the future, so the police aren't adding unnecessary work, they're preventing future work, usually on down times when there's no major cases going on I'm guessing, and they need to fill quotas. They won't do it when crime is already high, they'll be busy with the crimes being commited on their own, because if they do it when busy their results will go up, as will quotas, and they want quotas as low as possible.

 

Veilhawk
Registered User
Posts: 702
(6/6/05 7:00 am)

Who makes the quota?

Quota's for arresting a certian number of people a week?

That's hunting. Around here, cops do that all the time. Whenever they need more money - you'll know it because they are ALL OVER the place hounding people in their cars, hiding behind walls, and setting up traps with fake prostitutes and other stuff. And it's very obvious they're wrong too because they are imtimidating and threatening when they do it: All to keep their jobs lest they be downsized. The classes are still being seperated, bankers and government are fault for it. I had a friend that got a speeding ticket for 5 miles over the 'limit', it is was in a speed trap. That's not preventing crime: That's promoting it because the cause of the crimes are not due to us, it's due to their entrapment through stupidity and ignorance of all things. We have done nothing; they deserve to die.

 

HothSnake 
Sovereign Power
Posts: 1790
(6/2/05 3:12 pm)

Veilhawk is right on... They don't do it in their so called "down time", they do it whenever they need some extra money. And it is obvious, like he said, when it is that time of the month because you will see them lurching behind every corner.

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Someone who is trafficing child pornography or paying for prostitution obviously IS,

 

Someone who is trafficking child porn is breaking the law already, and doesn't require entrapment. You don't quite understand the concept yet, do you? That's o.k... I'll be gentle. ;) Entrapment is the process of tricking someone into committing a crime that they may or may not be intending to commit. Now, let's go to your prostitute being different from a traffic light example.... A person that is just walking down the road and is approached by a pretty undercover cop, probably isn't intending to pick a prostitute up on this particular day. He may just be on his way home from work. When this pretty gal offers him a sexual favor, what should he do? How is this any different than setting up a speed trap? The intention is not there for either one, and the poor guy who did nothing more than get an imaginary blow job from a crooked cop is now in jail. What purpose did this serve society? Stopping people who are committing crimes is the job of the police, and not stopping people who may commit a crime. Hate crimes and thought crimes make a mockery of our justice system, and lead to such stupidity in law that thinking about getting a blowjob is now a criminal offense. Suddenly, the movie Minority Report isn't so far fetched. A person that is a real criminal has no need to be entrapped... he is already in violation of the law. Entrapment is designed to turn those that aren't criminals into criminals. It's a farce.

As to your quotas... Why have quotas, unless your intent is to create crime? The government often gives aid money to departments that meet certain quotas. This ridiculous practice compels police officers to arrest as many people as they can, and believe me, they don't care if they are guilty or innocent. In fact, it is a quota based on total arrests and not convictions resulting from those arrests. This is why we have entrapment.

There was a study done on L.A. streets that have the new traffic cameras. Its conclusion was that these cameras did nothing to prevent accidents, and that they were strategically placed at intersections that had revenue generating potential, and not at intersections that were deemed more dangerous. In fact, cameras that did not generate enough revenue, were strategically moved to a location that did. It's all about money Tyciol.

 

Cristal White (another guy that joined the conversation)
Pharaoh of the Stars
Posts: 1941
(6/7/05 7:57 am)

I agree with Hoth, entrapment is not acceptable.

They send agents to Internet chatrooms to pose as 14 year old girls to set up a date with a pedophile and arrest him. Fu ckin' duh.

Hothsnake has a good grasp of individual liberties, as many Americans do. People outside the US often have no clue what "freedom" Americans are talking about.

Meanwhile Americans have difficulty understanding what "freedom" Iraqi insurgents are fighting for.

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It is moronic for a so called law enforcement officer to say that he is upholding the law by breaking it


:lol Exactly

I remember a German TV show about 7 years ago, where they sent minors to buy porn to demonstrate that the laws are not upheld well.

 

Tyciol
Registered User
Posts: 122
(6/5/05 11:08 pm)

They couldn't arrest you for meeting a 14 year old in Canada 13 yes... either way I don't benefit much from it, I think I'm getting past the age where I found them attractive... this really does sadden me, I never had a chance to boff one, I missed out on having love before I became a man... *cries*

Anyway... I'm pretty sure they can't arrest you if all you want to do it is meet. If you imply sex though, then yes, they can.

The thing is, if the woman cop approaches the man for a blow job, he can go ahead and get one. If she wants MONEY though, say no. There's nothing illegal about getting sucked off by a slut, after all, and they need to get you on tape agreeing to it.

If the man is willing to engage in illegal purchase of prostitution, he is willingly breaking the law, and there is no damn way you can say that he would have never broken it if that cop had never come along, because his morals are structured that he would. The cops are just catching him ahead of time.

Of course, I support the registration, regulation and legalization of prostitution, but that's a whole other matter. It's illegal now, and that should be respected. If you really want it so bad, go to germany where it is legal. I'd rather just go through the hassle of dating, relationships might be interesting and fulfilling if I can get the knack for it.

 

Cristal White
Pharaoh of the Stars
Posts: 1941
(6/7/05 7:57 am)

The point is, if it wasn't for their entrapment action, the law wouldn't have been broken at all.

 

HothSnake 
Sovereign Power
Posts: 1790
(6/2/05 3:12 pm)

Quote:
They couldn't arrest you for meeting a 14 year old in Canada 13 yes... either way I don't benefit much from it, I think I'm getting past the age where I found them attractive... this really does sadden me, I never had a chance to boff one, I missed out on having love before I became a man... *cries*


All violations of anyone's individual rights is an affront to your own. You may not be an accused pedophile, but I'm pretty sure that you drive a car; and let's say that you have been looking into some of the things that I've been telling you and you might have some anti-government material in your car, for reading during traffic or whatever... The police need some money and some quotas to satisfy, so they set up a speed trap and hide behind a big tree waiting for you to come by. You come by, while failing to notice the new posted speed limit and are pulled over for speeding. The police officer goes through the usual and decides that you look a little suspicious, so he does a search of your vehicle. He finds the anti-government literature in your backseat, so he decides to treat you as an enemy combatant(after all, we can't be too careful with all of this terrorism going on) and detain you without due process indefinitely thanks to the Patriot Act. He has met his quota, extorted money and your vehicle out of you, and he is now a town hero for saving us all from a dangerous terrorist, and enjoys a promotion. If you will not defend your neighbors rights and freedoms, then you will soon find your own being violated with impunity. This is why we set up a legal system where even a pedophile has rights and enjoys due process under the law.

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Anyway... I'm pretty sure they can't arrest you if all you want to do it is meet. If you imply sex though, then yes, they can.


Imply?? What does that mean? I say things all of the time that I have no intention of actually doing. For instance, I'd like to punch Janet Reno.. I never will, but it is still a very nice thought. Until you've actually done the act, no one can tell you what you were or weren't going to do, but perhaps God. And yes, they can arrest you for just meeting with someone by saying that you had "intent to commit rape", which is nothing more than convicting you of a thought crime. Don't you see, that is what entrapment is all about? It's about creating intent, i.e., thought. It's about persecuting people for thinking, which should never be the place of government.

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If the man is willing to engage in illegal purchase of prostitution, he is willingly breaking the law, and there is no damn way you can say that he would have never broken it if that cop had never come along, because his morals are structured that he would. The cops are just catching him ahead of time.


You're still missing the point. The key word here is "engage". Until the act has been performed, he has done nothing more than offer some money to a babe on the street. If that is all it takes in order to convict someone of paying for sexual services, then you should arrest the cop as well for offering them, for who is to say what her true intentions are? Do you see the convolution it takes in order to administer such ridiculous laws? If the government can declare itself psychic and arrest people for their intentions, then why can't the public read the minds of government and arrest them for their intentions? What, you've never heard of dirty cops?

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Of course, I support the registration, regulation and legalization of prostitution, but that's a whole other matter. It's illegal now, and that should be respected. If you really want it so bad, go to germany where it is legal. I'd rather just go through the hassle of dating, relationships might be interesting and fulfilling if I can get the knack for it.



Why?? It's a waste of resources to go after such petty crime. There is enough dangerous and harmful crime being committed to keep the police busy, but that would entail stopping their own corruption, and that will never happen. It's sort of like having the inmates run the jail. The only reason that it is outlawed is so that the government can get a piece of the action, so to speak. Why do you think they outlawed Alcohol in the 20's.. It was big business for the police and the mob. Anytime something like that is outlawed, it becomes a huge racket, usually run by the government. Just look at the illegal drug situation.

 

Cristal White
Pharaoh of the Stars
Posts: 1941
(6/7/05 7:57 am)

Wow, Hoth is condemning the Patriot Act, how cool. This law is one of the scariest and most depraved things about the new America.
Consider American Jose Padilla who's been held without charges for years.

 

HothSnake 
Sovereign Power
Posts: 1790
(6/2/05 3:12 pm)

Quote:
Wow, Hoth is condemning the Patriot Act, how cool. This law is one of the scariest and most depraved things about the new America.
Consider American Jose Padilla who's been held without charges for years.



America went to @#%$ long before that insipid law was passed. FDR resurrected the Communist United States Of Soviet Russia And America(CUSSRA) back in 1933, and America has been under emergency war powers since the Civil War. We've been slaves and serfs ever since.. I'm starting to realize why Europeans refer to us as "stupid Americans"... Who won WWII? It wasn't America... it was the Soviet Union. Why were we even siding with Stalin, who was more of a mass murderer than Hitler at this point?

 

Tyciol
Registered User
Posts: 122
(6/5/05 11:08 pm)

Hoth, I'd be fine if they caught me in a speed trap, serves me for speeding. The patriot act is a whole other matter though, I hate it as much as you do.

I'm not just discriminating against pedophilia, I'm saying I support entrapment for CONCIOUS crimes. Hiding a speed sign isn't concious because they don't notice it. Paying a prostitute for a blow job (even though I support the legalization or prostituion) is illegal and a very concious breaking of the law. It's not as if your wallet is going to accidentally fly open and have the correct amount hit her in the face, you have to say "yes, I'll pay you for sex." or something.

To be honest, I can't wait until our mental/physical evaluation methods are advanced enough so that they're not based on age, but on psychological/intellectual/doctoral tests.

 

HothSnake 
Sovereign Power
Posts: 1790
(6/2/05 3:12 pm)

Quote:
Hoth, I'd be fine if they caught me in a speed trap, serves me for speeding.


You must be one of those weird sado masochists that enjoys pain, and gets off on being robbed blind by corrupt police officers. The rest of the known world doesn't enjoy extortion.

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I'm not just discriminating against pedophilia, I'm saying I support entrapment for CONCIOUS crimes. Hiding a speed sign isn't concious because they don't notice it.


What? Technically, all crime is a conscious crime. If you don't know that it is a crime, then by law you haven't committed one. What do you think the insanity defense is all about? The police know this full well, which is why they often try to get you to incriminate yourself by asking you if you know why they pulled you over. They will also ask if you know the posted speed limit in the particular zone that you got pulled over in. If you play ignorant (I know from experience) often times they will let you off the hook. You can't consciously commit a crime until you have committed it. Hang in there though, because I think that you are finally catching on.

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Paying a prostitute for a blow job (even though I support the legalization or prostituion) is illegal and a very concious breaking of the law. It's not as if your wallet is going to accidentally fly open and have the correct amount hit her in the face, you have to say "yes, I'll pay you for sex." or something.



Not at all.. Case in point: a beauty of a cop approaches me and asks me if I want some companionship for the evening **wink wink** and I say sure, intending that she be my accompaniment to a social gathering that I don't have a date for with no intentions of sex (we've all seen Pretty Woman ). Now I spend the night in jail for supposedly soliciting a prostitute for an imaginary act of sex that supposedly took place in the criminal police officer's mind. Perhaps I am extremely naive and have no idea that she is even a prostitute, and perhaps just a beautiful and friendly escort. Is that a crime? Can the police entrap me into committing thought crimes? Can there be justice in a justice system predicated on the punishment of thoughts as crimes? Should our legal system be run like a psychic friends network? The answer to all of these questions is obviously no. How do you know what is a crime and what isn't, after all, it's all just in the mind. Such a convoluted system could easily be taken advantage of by the unscrupulous and the powerful, who could virtually write their own laws. But all of this is beside the real point here. The point has always been that those that swear oaths to uphold and protect the law, cannot be allowed to break the law, or think themselves above the law. Entrapment, in practice, is illegal, and should not be tolerated by a free people, who value that freedom. No one can be above the law in a just society.